[quote][quote="Stone"]RSB:

Well.............so far you have blamed logging, the legal system, and now the hunters. Why not just blame the deer for not cooperating and then the hunters and the PGC can join together and go kill every last one of them for being so uncooperative!

You, my friend, are a piece of work![/quote][/quote]

Nope and you thinking that is either a result of your lack of reading comprehension or simply yet another attempt to reject the facts and evidence.

I didn’t blame logging, I blamed the lack of logging, which resulted from a decision of the legal system. That then adversely affected the ability of the habitat to continue supporting the high number of deer that follow clear-cutting and good forest management of mature forests.

Your failure to understand how the habitat change affected deer the populations is simply a demonstration of how little you understand about deer/habitat relationships, how they change or how each affects the future of the other.

Yes, I most certainly do blame hunters for much of the poor habitat and low deer numbers we have across much of the northern tier today. The professional deer managers had been trying to balance the deer herd with and habitat for way more than a half century before the populations crashed. They kept warning hunters that the deer herd could not be sustained at those high over winter densities without adversely affecting their food supply to the point eventually few deer would be able to live on the damaged deer range. Every time the professionals try to correct the problem by raising the allocations and increased the doe harvests the hunters went nuts, called their legislators and ended up forcing the Game Commission into more years of the mis-management of over protecting the deer and under protecting the deer food. Well hunters finally got what they kept demanding, with lower deer harvests, until the population crashed, just as the professionals had been telling them was going to happen.

The worst part is how obvious it is that so many hunters still aren’t smart enough to see and understand the evidence and real facts, even when it is pointed out to them time after time. Because of that it is going to be very hard for the professionals to ever manage for more deer that the low numbers we currently have in many areas today. What is probably even worse though is that because of the hunter’s continuous demands for more deer we will most likely see even more areas of the state with destroyed habitat and crashing deer populations in the future.

It is long past time for the Game Commission to STOP listening to hunter demands and really start listening to what the deer and deer habitat are telling them instead.

Dick Bodenhorn

[quote="RSB"][quote][quote="Stone"]RSB:

Well.............so far you have blamed logging, the legal system, and now the hunters. Why not just blame the deer for not cooperating and then the hunters and the PGC can join together and go kill every last one of them for being so uncooperative!

You, my friend, are a piece of work![/quote][/quote]

Nope and you thinking that is either a result of your lack of reading comprehension or simply yet another attempt to reject the facts and evidence.

I didn’t blame logging, I blamed the lack of logging, which resulted from a decision of the legal system. That then adversely affected the ability of the habitat to continue supporting the high number of deer that follow clear-cutting and good forest management of mature forests.

Your failure to understand how the habitat change affected deer the populations is simply a demonstration of how little you understand about deer/habitat relationships, how they change or how each affects the future of the other.

Yes, I most certainly do blame hunters for much of the poor habitat and low deer numbers we have across much of the northern tier today. The professional deer managers had been trying to balance the deer herd with and habitat for way more than a half century before the populations crashed. They kept warning hunters that the deer herd could not be sustained at those high over winter densities without adversely affecting their food supply to the point eventually few deer would be able to live on the damaged deer range. Every time the professionals try to correct the problem by raising the allocations and increased the doe harvests the hunters went nuts, called their legislators and ended up forcing the Game Commission into more years of the mis-management of over protecting the deer and under protecting the deer food. Well hunters finally got what they kept demanding, with lower deer harvests, until the population crashed, just as the professionals had been telling them was going to happen.

The worst part is how obvious it is that so many hunters still aren’t smart enough to see and understand the evidence and real facts, even when it is pointed out to them time after time. Because of that it is going to be very hard for the professionals to ever manage for more deer that the low numbers we currently have in many areas today. What is probably even worse though is that because of the hunter’s continuous demands for more deer we will most likely see even more areas of the state with destroyed habitat and crashing deer populations in the future.

It is long past time for the Game Commission to STOP listening to hunter demands and really start listening to what the deer and deer habitat are telling them instead.

Dick Bodenhorn[/quote]

[quote="Mountaineer"]I just have 1 simple question..Why is the publicland hunting in the neighboring states that border PA so much better?...Its like night and day..In PA..I would struggle to kill an 80 class 2.5 year old 8 point...In the neighboring state im hunting..We pass on 130 inch bucks and routinely kill 140 class and greater bucks..Its absolutely mind bogleing [/quote]

There is no question that states to the west of Pennsylvania are going to have bigger bucks than the more forested and mountainous regions of Pennsylvania. There are also many reasons for those bucks to be nicer in the more western or southern states.

The first reason is the difference between rich farm soils in the western states verses the poor soils and rocky outcroppings of the more forested and mountainous regions of Pennsylvania. Next you have the fact that in Pennsylvania we have more hunters and those hunters have a tendency to kill the bucks at a younger age than they do in some of the neighboring states. You also have the fact that in most areas of Pennsylvania hunters are using rifles instead of shotguns so they have a longer range of ability to kill those younger bucks.

Even though we are starting to see some bigger bucks in this state Pennsylvania is not trying to become a trophy deer state. So, you should just continue hunting the fish in the barrel states instead of attempting the challenge of harvesting one of the many older and higher quality bucks now available in Pennsylvania.

Dick Bodenhorn

[quote="RSB"][quote="Mountaineer"]I just have 1 simple question..Why is the publicland hunting in the neighboring states that border PA so much better?...Its like night and day..In PA..I would struggle to kill an 80 class 2.5 year old 8 point...In the neighboring state im hunting..We pass on 130 inch bucks and routinely kill 140 class and greater bucks..Its absolutely mind bogleing [/quote]

There is no question that states to the west of Pennsylvania are going to have bigger bucks than the more forested and mountainous regions of Pennsylvania. There are also many reasons for those bucks to be nicer in the more western or southern states.

The first reason is the difference between rich farm soils in the western states verses the poor soils and rocky outcroppings of the more forested and mountainous regions of Pennsylvania. Next you have the fact that in Pennsylvania we have more hunters and those hunters have a tendency to kill the bucks at a younger age than they do in some of the neighboring states. You also have the fact that in most areas of Pennsylvania hunters are using rifles instead of shotguns so they have a longer range of ability to kill those younger bucks.

Even though we are starting to see some bigger bucks in this state Pennsylvania is not trying to become a trophy deer state. So, you should just continue hunting the fish in the barrel states instead of attempting the challenge of harvesting one of the many older and higher quality bucks now available in Pennsylvania.

Dick Bodenhorn[/quote]

It's really a sad disgusting story that you have to be so pompous!

Why don't you just say "I'm smarter than you, just ask me"

...But i hunt woods in Ohio..No crop land anywhere..What does soil have to do with AGE?...Im killing publicland bucks in the 3 to 4 year old range every year..so is my buddy...What does soil have to do with age structure?...Where i use to hunt in PA ,,the soil was far better and had crop lands...The deer had an over abundance of food but yet the age structure of the bucks was poor..2.5 year olds was considered old...Trust me..if PA offered great hunting..id be there...Im just not into shooting immature bucks and IMO..2.5 year olds just arent mature.

I get my fair share of tough hunting in Maine..which in my opinion..still offers much better hunting then PA...If i had a choice betwenn PA or Maine..I would take Maine.

Dick..PA cannot offer what i want..So..I choose not to hunt there.

[quote="Mountaineer"]...But i hunt woods in Ohio..No crop land anywhere..What does soil have to do with AGE?...Im killing publicland bucks in the 3 to 4 year old range every year..so is my buddy...What does soil have to do with age structure?...Where i use to hunt in PA ,,the soil was far better and had crop lands...The deer had an over abundance of food but yet the age structure of the bucks was poor..2.5 year olds was considered old...Trust me..if PA offered great hunting..id be there.

I get my fair share of tough hunting in Maine..which in my opinion..still offers much better hunting then PA...If i had a choice betwenn PA or Maine..I would take Maine.

Dick..PA cannot offer what i want..So..I choose not to hunt there. [/quote]

This is really sad! What is not sad is that, unlike Dick, you took the high road and refrained from the childish innuendo.

Hunting, logging, soil, and crops have been basically the same in Pa. for decades and while the hunting was never great from a trophy buck standpoint there was "always" a great hunting experience in Pa. When I bought my camp in Ohio 12 years ago I told the Ohio hunters that while I may not have a chance at a trophy every year in Pa. I can always plan to see deer and enjoy the wilderness in a different way than hunting small patches of land accessible in Ohio.

Then along comes the current decision makers in the PGC and within the life span of one generation of whitetail deer they have destroyed the entire experience in massive portions of the state! Add on top of this the ignorance displayed by the WCO's who spin, twist, and misrepresent the truth in an effort to try to cover up the real culprit, and the state I grew up in, and cherished hunting in, is no longer worth the hassle.

I sincerely wish that those in the PGC who look down their nose at hunters, blame everyone and everything under the sun for their mistakes, and treat people like second class citizens when in fact they are responsible for the destruction of multi-generation traditions, would go to another state where I never hope to hunt!

The Pa. deer herd survived the Pa. hunters for decades, yet new regulations go in to place and the herd is decimated.....................and it's the hunters fault? What a crock! Even if this were true it still indicates an inept PGC if they allowed the hunters to brow beat them in to a program they knew was bad for the herd..........it's all sour grapes!

Like I said, this is the first year in 30 years, since getting out of the service, that I did not buy a Pa. hunting license.

RSB:

I will try to explain why the hunting in Pa., the attitude of the PGC and WCO's, and quite frankly your attitude here, leaves such a bad taste in peoples mouth, and like Mountaineer, I will try to do it tactfully.

You blame the logging industry But for this to be accepted means that the PGC has failed to serve the state and it's hunters because they were not prepared to, or capable of , or both, properly representing them and have allowed the herd to be decimated under their watch.

You blame the legal system But, again, for this to be accepted means that the PGC has failed to serve the state and it's hunters because they were not prepared to, or capable of , or both, properly representing them and have allowed the herd to be decimated under their watch.

You blame the hunters But this to be accepted, the PGC is stating that they allowed the voice of a sub set of Pa. hunters to control them indicating they were not, and are not, capable of administering the proper programs and regulations.

The deer herd in Pa. has withstood the same hunting pressure for decades, representing numerous generations of whitetail deer, without drastic herd reduction.

Logging has ebbed and flowed for decades, representing numerous generations of whitetail deer, in Pa. without drastic herd reduction.

The legal system, as usual, bends to the most powerful, and the most prepared, litigant in front of them. The logging industry was obviously more powerful and more prepared.

The PGC and it's WCO's should drop the attitude, cooperate with the hunters, and do whatever is necessary to return the tradition of hunting to Pa. You, and many other WCO's I have run in to, should definitely drop the attitude, man up, take it on the chin, and work with the people who pay you rather than against them.

[quote="Mountaineer"]...But i hunt woods in Ohio..No crop land anywhere..What does soil have to do with AGE?...Im killing publicland bucks in the 3 to 4 year old range every year..so is my buddy...What does soil have to do with age structure?...Where i use to hunt in PA ,,the soil was far better and had crop lands...The deer had an over abundance of food but yet the age structure of the bucks was poor..2.5 year olds was considered old...Trust me..if PA offered great hunting..id be there...Im just not into shooting immature bucks and IMO..2.5 year olds just arent mature.

I get my fair share of tough hunting in Maine..which in my opinion..still offers much better hunting then PA...If i had a choice betwenn PA or Maine..I would take Maine.

Dick..PA cannot offer what i want..So..I choose not to hunt there. [/quote]

Soil quality of course has nothing to do with a deer’s age, but it does have a lot to do with the antler development. Deer of the same age and genetic background will usually have more antler growth in richer soil areas than where the soils or not as good. Deer get most of their nutrition and the majority of their minerals from eating the plants and woody browse within their home range. Those minerals from the soil are thus transferred to the plant life deer eat. If those plants and woody browse are in more mineral rich soil the bucks will develop larger antlers that the same deer would in poor soil areas.

As I already pointed out many states do have bucks of an older age class then you will find in most of Pennsylvania. That probably isn’t going to change nor do most hunters want it to change. Most Pennsylvania hunters are perfectly satisfied harvesting any legal buck they see so we most likely will never have as many older bucks as some of the other states with fewer hunters or hunters will a more trophy harvest interest.

Many areas of Pennsylvania are now seeing more older bucks in the population with more of them also making trophy status but, if you are only interested in the killing of a trophy you probably have a better chance in anyone of a long list of other states. Pennsylvania has no intention of even attempting to become a trophy buck state. Everyone should hunt where they get the most enjoyment from their time in the field.

Dick Bodenhorn

[quote="Stone"]RSB:

I will try to explain why the hunting in Pa., the attitude of the PGC and WCO's, and quite frankly your attitude here, leaves such a bad taste in peoples mouth, and like Mountaineer, I will try to do it tactfully.

You blame the logging industry But for this to be accepted means that the PGC has failed to serve the state and it's hunters because they were not prepared to, or capable of , or both, properly representing them and have allowed the herd to be decimated under their watch.

I don’t know if you have a serious reading comprehension problem or if you are just trying to misrepresent what I have said.

I never blamed the logging industry for the lack of deer, in fact it was just the opposite. The ENTIRE discussion was about what happened with deer numbers in the Allegheny National Forest, because that was where you were complaining about no deer. I pointed out that the Allegheny Defense Project, thorough the Court, STOPPED the logging and how that then had such an adverse affect on the number of deer the ANF could support.

We would have more deer today if there had been more logging so loggers are the friends of deer hunters. It was the misguided actions of the anti-logging group and the court that imposed the injunction that forced the halt to the cutting that caused the habitat change in the ANF that no longer supports as many deer. There was nothing the Game Commission could do to change that fact.


You blame the legal system But, again, for this to be accepted means that the PGC has failed to serve the state and it's hunters because they were not prepared to, or capable of , or both, properly representing them and have allowed the herd to be decimated under their watch.

Nope I’m not blaming the legal system either though it was the court that made the ruling to stop the cutting that supported more deer. The court might not have even been incorrect in the logic of their ruling. The ruling might have even been the best thing for the long-term future of the forest and deer, though based on what I believe I doubt that to be the case, even though it certainly did result in fewer deer for the present and at least short-term future. There was nothing the Game Commission could do to over-rule the Court either. The affects of the court decision simply is what it is and all the Game Commission can do is work with what is instead of what they wish things were.

You blame the hunters But this to be accepted, the PGC is stating that they allowed the voice of a sub set of Pa. hunters to control them indicating they were not, and are not, capable of administering the proper programs and regulations.

So you are saying the Game Commission should ignore the demands of hunters. Yet you are complaining because I try to educate you about the facts instead just allowing you to spread misinformation about the Game Commission and deer management. What kind of logic is that?

The deer herd in Pa. has withstood the same hunting pressure for decades, representing numerous generations of whitetail deer, without drastic herd reduction.

That is not at all factual. Hunter numbers and hunter harvests have shifted getting within the state over the past twenty years or more. It is generally the areas of the state with declining hunters and the lowest antlerless harvests that are now suffering from poor habitat low deer populations.

Logging has ebbed and flowed for decades, representing numerous generations of whitetail deer, in Pa. without drastic herd reduction.

Though logging has ebbed and flowed all over the state, logging has always had a major affect on the deer populations. With more logging you have more deer. When logging stops the deer herd will be ok until the once seedling rich area recently logged grows into pole timber then the deer population in that area has to decline because it no longer has the same amount of food. That is simply an act of nature. The Game Commission doesn’t control nature nor can they force others to timber their land.

The legal system, as usual, bends to the most powerful, and the most prepared, litigant in front of them. The logging industry was obviously more powerful and more prepared.

Once again I will try to explain it you. The court battle that affected the ANF was not with the logging industry though it certainly affected both the logging industry and deer populations.

The PGC and it's WCO's should drop the attitude, cooperate with the hunters, and do whatever is necessary to return the tradition of hunting to Pa.

I don’t believe it is the WCOs that carry the attitude, though I can tell you that most of us refuse to accept attitude and misinformation from those we deal with without setting the record straight.

You also now say you want the Game Commission to cooperate and do what hunters want, but just a coupe paragraphs ago you said we should do what is right for the deer and the future instead of what some hunters demand. Which do you want? Do you want the Game Commission to do what is right for the future of the resources or what hunters like you want? They most certainly are not one and the same, even if you do mistakenly believe they are.

You, and many other WCO's I have run in to, should definitely drop the attitude, man up, take it on the chin, and work with the people who pay you rather than against them.[/quote]

I don’t work for you or the other hunters that want to go down a road of further destruction. I work for the betterment of our resources, the future of our deer and their habitats and toward a brighter future for the hunters working toward a better tomorrow. I continuously work to educate those that refuse to become more knowledgeable about the wildlife/habitat interrelationships and how each affects the future of the other because those that don’t understand it have already caused great damage to our resources and threaten to do even more. I happen to believe that to be what the most responsible hunters not only pay me to do but what they expect of a WCO.

Dick Bodenhorn

Came in 2 nights ago...Handsome looking buck...Seems bucks are beginning to roam alittle..But when they are Nocturnal..there's nothing a hunter can do

Nice!

I agree. Nice deer. I have been seeing a lot of buck, but they are all nocturnal so far. But, they are scraping already.

My 3 reasons the hunting population is declining? I think there are a combination of many reasons. But here are a few:

3. The breakdown of the family is becoming more prevelant. More and more fathers aren't teaching their kids how and why to hunt.

2. People don't have the time that they used to have. Many families are forced (or choose) to have both parents work. And honestly, both probably work more than 40 hours a week. I don't agree with this, but I believe it is one factor.

1. Laziness and necessity. It is much easier to drive to Giant Eagle and grab a steak for $10. More and more people are becoming reliant on the government to provide them with the necessities of life, such as food.

I grew up in a southwestern PA city and didn't start hunting until I was 40 years old. I was always worried about chasing women, partying and thought hunting was too much work. When I grew up a few friends asked me to go hunting. I immediately realized that I wanted to get very good at it. I've made many mistakes, including making bad archery shots on a couple deer which I am certain were fatal, but bad shots. I never found either deer, one of which was a very nice 10 point which taught me some very hard lessons about patience and respect.
Another mistake I've made is trying to rush into the woods and get a quick hunt in. Every time I did this I made many mistakes. Hunting is something that should be done methodically and with patience. Otherwise you will screw up and it simply isn't enjoyable when you rush.
The first time I had to gut a deer it made me sick, even though I understood that the tasty steak/chicken/fish I've enjoyed throughout my life was killed and slaughtered by some other person. So I soldiered on and have learned to deal with it and that it is a part of survival.
When I realized that I had obtained the skills needed to survive as long as there was game to be had, it was a very liberating feeling. I still feel a little bad when I kill a deer, but it is a natural part of life and death. Plus I like what they taste like now.

Everyone have a safe and successful 2010 hunting season.

[quote="Cityhunter"]I agree. Nice deer. I have been seeing a lot of buck, but they are all nocturnal so far. But, they are scraping already.

My 3 reasons the hunting population is declining? I think there are a combination of many reasons. But here are a few:

3. The breakdown of the family is becoming more prevelant. More and more fathers aren't teaching their kids how and why to hunt.

2. People don't have the time that they used to have. Many families are forced (or choose) to have both parents work. And honestly, both probably work more than 40 hours a week. I don't agree with this, but I believe it is one factor.

1. Laziness and necessity. It is much easier to drive to Giant Eagle and grab a steak for $10. More and more people are becoming reliant on the government to provide them with the necessities of life, such as food.

I grew up in a southwestern PA city and didn't start hunting until I was 40 years old. I was always worried about chasing women, partying and thought hunting was too much work. When I grew up a few friends asked me to go hunting. I immediately realized that I wanted to get very good at it. I've made many mistakes, including making bad archery shots on a couple deer which I am certain were fatal, but bad shots. I never found either deer, one of which was a very nice 10 point which taught me some very hard lessons about patience and respect.
Another mistake I've made is trying to rush into the woods and get a quick hunt in. Every time I did this I made many mistakes. Hunting is something that should be done methodically and with patience. Otherwise you will screw up and it simply isn't enjoyable when you rush.
The first time I had to gut a deer it made me sick, even though I understood that the tasty steak/chicken/fish I've enjoyed throughout my life was killed and slaughtered by some other person. So I soldiered on and have learned to deal with it and that it is a part of survival.
When I realized that I had obtained the skills needed to survive as long as there was game to be had, it was a very liberating feeling. I still feel a little bad when I kill a deer, but it is a natural part of life and death. Plus I like what they taste like now.

Everyone have a safe and successful 2010 hunting season.[/quote]

There's no doubt the reasons you cite are valid, sad but true. But these reason should increase the deer herd.....if there was one!

BTW..That is a Ohio Buck ..He's young ..maybe 3 years old.

[quote="Mountaineer"]BTW..That is a Ohio Buck ..He's young ..maybe 3 years old.[/quote]
just out of curiosity how old were the last two bucks you shoot? 4.5?