[renegade]

Is it possible for PA to have some resident mountain lions / cougars/ puma's, or whatever name we keystoners choose to call them? Possible, Yes. Probable.... No.
Here is a letter I happened across from Jay Tischendorf from the American Ecological Research Institute in Montana. It was addressed to Pa's resident conspirator and columnist J. Slinski to refute some claims that he is making about there being hundreds of sightings each year, and of course a cover up to suppress them.

Jim,

I'd like to bring some commonsense to this topic. First, there is no wildlife management debacle, puma problem, or cougar conspiracy in PA or anywhere else in the East for that matter. There never has been. Mountains (or mountain lions) are being made of molehills, and precious time, energy, and resources are being squandered in this dialogue. There are much bigger conservation issues---for instance habitat loss and rampant real estate development, acid rain, chronic wasting disease and other captive wildlife issues, chytridomycosis fungus in amphibians, the proliferation of free-ranging housecats, feral dogs, etc... Let's focus on those.

Yes, I know thousands of people are reporting pumas in PA. They have been doing so for about 100 yrs. Meanwhile, the last confirmed puma was documented in 1967 in western PA----and it was considered most likely to be a menagerie escapee. Prior to that the next most recent confirmation was probably as far back as the early 1900s. In two different interviews on your radio program you and I have talked all about this. I acknowledge there are probably a few (very few) pumas circulating in the wild around PA and NY, as well as other areas in New England and eastern Canada. For instance, I have seen solid evidence reportedly derived from NY and Maine (track photos, for instance). Where these cats came from is anyone's guess. Indeed exotic animal ownership laws are so lax, variable, and unenforced as to be ludicrous. So some cats could come from that route. And it is possible that some pumas---as did the coyote starting back in the 1930s and 40s (as is well-documented in the scientific literature the appearance of coyotes was not another PA Game Commission or other agency conspiracy )---could move east or southward from established range in the American or Canadian west or areas north of the border. It is also possible that a few zealous environmentalists or other individuals have released pumas. But covert releases of any large animals, perhaps especially carnivores, are not accomplished easy. And secrets are hard to keep---so word would likely eventually get out. If such releases are taking place, such word still hasn't. As far as agency-led covert releases, which---as with the coyote---is a perennial Pennsylvania conspiracy rumor, do you honestly think the legal advisors of any govt agency or group would allow this?

I mentioned good evidence I have seen and feel is credible from places like NY and Maine (track photos, pictures and documentation of kills, etc...). Regarding PA, however, which has extremely favorable puma habitat, I keep anticipating seeing something bonafide, but in 25 yrs all I have seen is much speculation, a substantial and surprising number of incorrectly identified bobcats and housecats, and a whole lot of hysteria and panther paranoia. Most of the latter is often generated by individuals who claim to be experts yet, while perhaps having some academic credentials or some background with tracking or nature observation, have absolutely no professional, nor even amateur, real world research or management experience with pumas or any other carnivores. Such individuals and the groups they represent literally don't even rate as "Laughing Stock" among those, and this includes both professionals and many dedicated amateurs or hobbyists, who truly do study or manage such wildlife elsewhere around the continent. Exacerbating this matter is the almost universal fact that such proclaimed "experts" are either incapable of, or refuse to familiarize themsleves with the substantial body of fundamental knowledge regarding the species gained in the American West and in Central and South America where the species is common. Instead they wrap themselves and their presentations in anecdote and hearsay.

Jim, as you know I have been involved in the subject of cougars-in-the East for over a quarter century. I too was originally swayed by the countless eyewitness reports of pumas. And still today I say that if even one sighting is valid then we absolutely need to explain it. But in my experience, for whatever reasons,the vast majority of sighting or sound reports are not valid, and unless there is definitive proof to corroborate a person's report , then there isn't much to go on, at least with pumas. Now, puma skeptics used to tell me, "Jay, if there are pumas in the East, why aren't they getting hit by cars like the pumas in Florida are?" My reply---my belief---was that Florida's traffic patterns, with its astoundingly busy highways like Alligator Alley, were unique. Well, I was wrong, and it was developments in the Great Plains in the early 1990s that proved this.

We can in fact readily contrast the puma "situation" in PA and most of the East with the Great Plains and Midwest. The East, which historically had apparently a healthy population of pumas (up until the late 1800s or early 1900s), has had over 100 yrs (roughly 1900-2000) with literally tons of reports yet, surprisingly, very few confirmed pumas. What's going on? On the other hand, the Great Plains had a limited puma population in the 1800s to 1900s and also had exceedingly very few puma reports over the next 100 yrs. But in the 1990s pumas started showing up AND getting confirmed----they were shot by hunters and farmers, they were hit by cars and even trains, their tracks were photographed, and even the cats themselves were "captured" on film with camera traps. Take a look at the website of the Cougar Network---you'll see all this data. It is solid. Dead boides are hard to dispute---we are not talking the typical backend butt shot fuzzy photo of a PA bobcat that I am asked to evaluate. In any case,that pattern of puma confirmations continues today---in Nebraska, the Dakotas, Iowa, Oklahoma, Missouri, and Minnesota. Even in Ilinois a wild puma was hit by a train and killed. And as it turns out in Colorado, New Mexico, California, and Montana, pumas are also regularly killed on roads. So it seems Florida doen't have all that unique of traffic patterns. What it has, and what all these other states have, are pumas. And people (and in some areas of the West and Great Plains not many of either). And yet where the two come together, there will be confirmed pumas. Indeed, in the mere matter of the past decade, there have been roughtly 30 confirmations of pumas in the Great Plains and Midwest. Bottom line, where the animal occurs, even in low numbers, it is verifiable.

Pennsylvania has thousands of puma report sover many decades. It also has over 1 million deer hunters and countless outdoorspeople, as well as heavy traffic volume on its highways that wind thru the States's many acres of excellent wildlife habitat. Regardless of the tons of "puma" sightings, if there were more than a few pumas around, and perhaps even if there were just one, it would by now almost certainly have been shot, trapped, hit by a car, truck, or train, or captured on film. This isn't happening. And yet every time I turn around, someone, without actually witnessing the event or gathering any hard evidence, is claiming to have seen a puma or screaming that a puma just attacked their horse or their dog and that there are pumas behind every bush. Some local puma "authorities" have even cautioned that pumas are attracted to women's perfume, "so beware!" It doesn't add up. When there are bears, coyotes, bobcats, feral dogs, and predatory humans all around, why is it that so many people insist the culprit in the latest depredation is arguably the rarest animal in the woods?

On the other hand, what I can also tell you is that where people have reported pumas over a period of yrs, at least one eventually shows up. This phenomenon validates those who have actually seen a puma, but unfortunately it also feeds the fires of those who haven't but are convinced that they did or that everyone else has---and then it's "I told you so, the cats have been around here for years...". My experience with this phenomenon, however, is that pumas are simply wide-ranging, long-dispersing, and adaptable, and that their eventual appearance probably doesn't directly relate to a local history of previous reports, at least not with the majority of reports, which we know are totally erroneous. In any case, I've encouraged wildlife agencies all over the Midwest and east to be prepared for this scenario---the day the puma does arrive. And just so you know, this includes open discussions with me and from groups like the Eastern Cougar Foundation about possibly eventually having a revenue-building hunting or pursuit season for the cats, if they were to reach suitable numbers. Neither Jay Tischendorf nor the ECF is all about total puma preservation. We just like pumas (and all other wildlife) and think there should be some of these cats around like there are in the West ---and that they should be managed and regulated scientifically and appropriately. Anyway, let's let the agencies get ready for the possibility of pumas without having to deal with the inane, hysterical, misguided individuals who seem to crowd your inbox with their rantings. Jim, over the many years, if these and other folks (myself included) haven't been able to produce hard evidence, something other than empty reports and claims, then doesn't that tell you there probably aren't pumas around?

Thanks for your time---you know I am happy to provide any assistance or info I can.

Jay

Jay Tischendorf DVM
American Ecological Research Institute (--AERIE)
Great falls, Montana USA

[mickey8]

i once was a believer of his retoric, but saying his name is copy right infringement and you will be sued...lol

[PSUHunter]

matt75bronco wrote:

Not do put down your opinion bud, But there are mountian lions here. I have seen one with my own two eyes. Actually a scary experience. These animals are not your average house cat or bobcat. There is no comparison to the size. Its the only time I was truly scared to be in the woods. I'M A BELIEVER!

I personally have not seen one, but one has been seen via two people, husband and wife, about 1/4 mile from my cabin in Lycoming county, he said there is no mistake when you see this animal that it is a mountian lion, he said when the lion was laying down, it looked to be up to ur waste, the animal is huge! I believe they are around, its sad if it takes them being killed, shot, etc to prove they are. If game commision or whoever is so interested in confirming they are not arround, then if there is so called "sightings" which I belive, then why are studies not done over a long period of time to see if they can confirm them with thier own eyes

[PSUHunter]

Lancaster wrote:

I have some family that lives in Sullivan county pa near Dushore. I have pic that their neighbors took of a mountain lion on that back deck, but I don't know how to post them. I have them in an email, but I am a little slow and can't figure out how to post them. I need help. Maybe I can email them to someone and they could post them for me??? Thanks

Lancaster, send them to blownstanggt@yahoo.com I can host and post them for ya!

[stickslinger03]

So i guess if Pa doens't have mountain lions, then a Pa hunter can't be fined for shooting one. According to the PGC it would have had to have escaped from a zoo or privatly owned in some way. If that's the case then the last thing we want is to have them in the wild and lowering the deer herd and killing livestock. I have personally seen one myself and have heard stories of local sightings in my area. The next time it shows up around the area, odds are it won't get too far.

[PSUHunter]

stickslinger03 wrote:

So i guess if Pa doens't have mountain lions, then a Pa hunter can't be fined for shooting one. According to the PGC it would have had to have escaped from a zoo or privatly owned in some way. If that's the case then the last thing we want is to have them in the wild and lowering the deer herd and killing livestock. I have personally seen one myself and have heard stories of local sightings in my area. The next time it shows up around the area, odds are it won't get too far.

Yeah, I heard of a farmer shoot one that was killing his sheep....game commision told him they do not exsist in PA, so he said if I see one I can shoot it right cause they dont exsist, and the game warden said sure, they dont exsist, so the farmer shot it

[PSUHunter]

Here are the pics from Lancaster

Look, its a over grown house cat

[stickslinger03]

well theres your proof that the PGC is full of $hit

[PSUHunter]

stickslinger03 wrote:

well theres your proof that the PGC is full of $hit

Ill tell ya what...if I seen one my rifle would be unloaded faster then some people shoot 1 shot haha....that would look great in a full body mount!

[mickey8]

same here! if the pgc says their not here so if you shot one then you really didn't kill a cougar since they don't exist here

[mickey8]

"I just think many humans have wild imaginations and it is as they say in psychology a self fufilling prophecy. If you want something to exist bad enough you creat it in your mind and then scramble to try and piece things together to make it fit"

LIKE GOD

[Uncle Dave]

Within the past 5 years I had the opportunity to sit at a table with a rather high ranking member of the PGC. I asked about the mtn lion rumors in PA, & he confirmed that they DO exist, but explained that all cases that they were aware of resulted from the ILLEGAL RELEASE of CAPTIVE EXOTIC "PETS". In all cases where they were able to examine a carcass or better yet, the situation where they caught a live one - they had a commonality - no front claws and the majority had no cannine teeth.

He related a story (and I'll shorten it) where a lady had complained about a mtn lion near Tionesta. The WCO reported to the property and to settle the woman down he "toured" the property. He did in fact find himself looking at a mnt lion at about 75 yards distance. Upon seeing the WCO, the cat started to walk toward the WCO. The WCO backed his way toward his truck, and when the cat saw the front door open, ran like a bullet into the front seat, where he sat in the passenger seat as if he were waiting for a ride. This cat was transfered to a cat sanctuary in the Carolinas.