[Ghost]

Same group.

[renegade]

This is true, but it's been a whole lot easier in the last couple years to see them. They were few and far between before. The key is AGE.

[Ghost]

Renegade..

I disagree..There were more mature bucks on our publiclands before HR. The Laws of Probablity insured mature bucks to be produced. More bucks were surving gun season because there was enough bucks to sustain the hunters. If there are 10 bucks in a particular area and 6 are killed..then 4 live on to become mature for the following season.

The laws of Probablity insured enough bucks for the hunters and enough to survive and live to become more mature the following year.

If I thought this new system was working..I would not be so against it.

[Younghunter]

Some nice videos there.. but the last two just show how there used to be too many deer in PA.

Most of these videos are in the the 90's but what about the early 2000's? HR/AR didn't start until 2002, right? You should have still gotten great footage and had excellent hunting in 2000, 2001, 2002... unless, HR/AR isn't the real reason why you are having poor hunting experiences. Something else must have caused the lack of your success... did the habitat change? Is the growth too old? Was there a lack of browse at the deers level? change in plant species? drought? developement/human disturbance? increase of human activity and hunting pressuree?... etc. Something else had to have contributed for you to not have success and produce footage during the early 2000's.

Obviously with HR there is going to be less overall deer... and you're not going to see 30-40 deer like were in those last two videos. Your success rate will temporarily suffer... but that wouldn't have happened until atleast 2003, the following year after HR was implemented. Slowly but surely, AR will increase the number of older bucks to a point where success will once again rise and people can have quality hunting with less deer. Something that will be more sustainable. Those effects should be starting to show, and they are if you look at the harvest data. Remember that article that I posted about the volunteer check stations? Maybe you chose not to read it... but the average age of bucks being harvested increased, weights increased, antler size increased, fawn weights dramatically increased. The data provided by the PGC shows that 2 1/2's are now making up about 50% of the total buck harvest. Before they made up around 15-20%.

Using this table of harvest data... http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=493&q=159232

You can find the average amount of bucks harvested between 1986-2001... and you come up with roughly 170,000. 2000 and 2001 being bumper years with 200,000 bucks shot, and many years where only 150,000 bucks shot. Since AR/HR 2002-2005, the average amount of deer harvested is 137,000... a significant drop, but then you have to realize that the herd has been reduced and many of the yearlings are being saved. Now pre-AR statistics show that 80% of the harvest was yearlings, leaving only 20% to be 2 1/2 years old +. post-AR statistics show that 50% of the harvest is 2 1/2 years old. Take those numbers into accound and you see that the pre-AR harvest of 2 1/2 + bucks comes out to only 34,000 bucks. The post-AR number comes out to 68,000 bucks. The comparasion isn't even close, and the new harvest of mature bucks has increased by a factor of 2.

Now, there is one problem with my calculations. The switch did not occur overnight... the statistic that 50% of the harvest is of 2 1/2 year old deer, is something that came out of the 2005 harvest data. It was a gradual upward change that started with only 15-20% of the harvest being composed of 2 1/2 year old deer to 50% of the harvest being composed of 2 1/2 year old deer. So in that sense I can't average 2002-2005's harvest and use the 50% for each year. I can only use it for 2005's harvest... which was 120,500 bucks; however, you will find that half of that number is still far greater than the 34,000 2 1/2+ y/o bucks harvested per year before AR.

The difference is that you have nothing to dispute this except opinions and a single persons biased observations. And it's clear that you are biased, because you will never take into account any of the data and reasonings that we put in front of you. If we took those same videos and we showed them to you of post-AR bucks... you would say... well it's just a by-product of private land and low hunting pressure. Not of AR. You would say... "must be private land". And no credit would be given to the PGC.

You can continue posting videos, because they are fun to watch, and people enjoy them (including myself)... but they don't prove much, other than you know how to work a video camera... you've seen some dandy bucks in the past... and you had fun doing it. You've chosen not to put much time and effort into PA for hunting, so of course you aren't going to get the footage today like you used too.

-Matt

[renegade]

That's a nice theory ghost, but unfornately reality is showing otherwise. Maybe not on the chunk of land you hunt on, but by your own admission, you hunt very little in PA.
I think your misunderstanding of selective harvest strategies is why you hang onto that thin thread of the law of probability. A thread that you like to selectively apply when you think it benefits your agenda, but toss it out when it doesn't.
If you took the time to understand the new system and do some research, you most likely wouldn't be against it. It's got a high approval rate with PA hunters. We can't all be wrong now can we?

Matt - Are you sure your only 18. You have a very adult like intellect on this subject. Don't miss your calling!

[Ghost]

Do my videos prove much?? I dont know..maybe and maybe not...At the time I didnt realize that i would be using them in the future to show people how things use to be...I just did it for enjoyment..I did it because of the healthy thriving deer herd that we once had..When the deer herds declined, so did my ambition to video.

But what my videos do prove is we had awsome deer hunting in the past..and the past did produce monster bucks on publicland.


Renegade...You've failed to convince me of anything...accept for the fact that you like to antagonize.

[Ghost]

Shed I found in Huntingdon county near Petersburg back in 1994 or 1995. It scores 74" to 76"...depends how you score it..about 2 " of antler has been chewed off. If the other side was the same you are talking about a 160" buck...If any of you guys know Petersburg area..its alot of mountains...I found this shed..deep in the mountains...back in the rocks and laurel.

More evidence that the old system produced monsters.

Renegade...Go find a shed like that today in PA.....I bet ya cant doit.

[renegade]

I believe the word would be "Educate" not "antagonize". And I couldn't do it without your help.

[Ghost]

Actually...I think you're rather envious.

[renegade]

Yeah there ya go. That's it. Keep thinking that. (if it helps you feel better)

Okay let's get this thread back on topic. Video of bucks.

[PSUHunter]

very nice videos ghost! I really enjoy watching videos that you share with us!

[buckman]

I'll give you credit, those are some nice videos. I tried it a couple times but gave up on it while in the stand because it's just another piece of equipment to lug around and I got in a jam one time with camera in one hand and bow in the other. Needless to say, I didn't get video or a shot at a nice 8pt.....That was the last time I took the camera!!