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| Board Index » 2009 Non-PA (out of state) Deer Hunting Log | The time now is Tue May 21, 2013 2:29 pm |
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Why are non resident hunters leaving pa | Goto page 1, 2 Next |
 | Why are non resident hunters leaving pa |  |
bainpa I'm a 12 point buck on this forum.
My next goal is to become a Member of the Pabucks.com Monster Buck Club.
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The many non resident friends i hunt with ( And still hunt with in other states)
They all ask why has hunting gone so down hill in pa . And why have the deer vanished |
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renegade Administrator
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Is that a question or a statement?
Maybe they haven't heard about the deer reduction plan. Maybe those 2% (1,207 people) from 2008 to 2009 lost their jobs and couldn't afford the costs. But I guess that still wouldn't explain the 5% drop (3,556 people) from 1998 to 1999. Wonder why they stopped hunting PA, bain, any ideas? |
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bainpa I'm a 12 point buck on this forum.
My next goal is to become a Member of the Pabucks.com Monster Buck Club.
|
[quote="renegade"]Is that a question or a statement?
Maybe they haven't heard about the deer reduction plan. Maybe those 2% (1,207 people) from 2008 to 2009 lost their jobs and couldn't afford the costs. But I guess that still wouldn't explain the 5% drop (3,556 people) from 1998 to 1999. Wonder why they stopped hunting PA, bainpa, any ideas?[/quote] Question At the end of this month the PA-GC will vote on doe allocations in Harrisburg .At last years meeting alot of the people that spoke asked for a huge reduction of doe tags and cut the concurrent doe season The PA-GC did cut tags by 56,000 but this reduction to 814,000 doe allocations for the 2010-2011 season this is not going to help as we had 750,000 hunters 64,000 more tags allocated than than hunters and only 1 of 4.35 hunters harvesting a deer Will some one please tell me our Pa,s whitetails heard size ( I have heard rumors and they were not good Lets get some facts ) Now lets throw in some other factors reducing deer #s bears know to take 35% fawn mortality , coyotes this % on fawns has to be huge as they are increasing , and fisher cats also on the rise. And hunters hunting two weeks straight . Its a wonder how we have any deer By the way its bainpa and if you would like to hear my ideas i,ll be at the Harrisburg meeting .But a few would be 1. go back to our 3 day after buck season doe season and cut doe allocations . At least cut doe allocations to the number of lic holders. Except in high deer density areas such as Pittsburgh and such areas 2. cut the concurrent doe season to the second week of buck and hugely cut doe allocations . Except in high deer density areas such as Pittsburgh and such areas I thought in the late 90s P.A hunters were over the million mark . |
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Hunterman I'm a Member of the Monster Buck Club!
My Final Goal is to become a VIP Member of PAbucks.com!!
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Hi guys
I am not a deer biologist, nor do I claim to understand deer or people. But since I am a hunter and since I have hunted continuously since 1978 when I first started hunting - the only thing that I can do is make some comparisons and make my thoughts verbal. In 1978 - when I was 13 years old, there was approximately 500+ kids in my class in school. Now not all of the students had a traditional 2 parent family, but enough of them did that the ones that came from a broken home were a minority. At the start of the year, I still had all my grandparents and even one of my great grandparents - my great grandmother didn't die until 1980 and even then she was about 97 years old. Before 1978 - both of my grandparents - who were at one time Pennsylvania coal miners, hunted. It was not a matter of wanting to go hunting - as a sport, but a necessity because if you happened to get anything, it supplemented the family table at supper time. Only one of my grandparents came from a large family, but both of my grandfathers came from a farming background where they had a family farm at one time and they supplemented their family income by farming. When the coal mines were productive, the cost of food was very expensive in the company store. A coal miner did not make a lot of money and so their families ate a lot of potatoes and they grew a lot of fruits and vegetables in their yards and gardens. Since I live near the town of Walston PA = which boasted the longest continuous string of coke ovens in the world, which Adrian PA had more coke ovens then Walston - just that there were breaks in the chain between the highway for the roads going into Adrian and Crawfordtown. Those coke ovens produced noxious gases that killed off most vegetation for miles around. Anyone that has studied the effects of coke production in a Bee Hive type oven can tell you that they were very inefficient - because they did not take advantage of the by products produced by the burning of coal to make coke - so they were outlawed around 1941 at the start of WW II = which was one main reason why they were shut down. Not to mention that Connelsville and Coral / Graceton was closer to Pittsburgh and it was cheaper to transport the raw materials closer to Pittsburgh then to produce the coke in Punxsutawney and then haul it 70 miles by rail - because the steel mills would only pay a set amount of the coke you produced and they did not care how much it cost you to transport it and so the coal mining operators were not willing to pay premium wages for you to mine the coal and make it into coke to be sold to the steel mills. Not to mention that some of the local area coal was used to run the locomotives - Rossiter mines produced all the coal used for the New York Central railroad and the Adrian mines produced the coal used to heat the buildings in New York City. After 1940 - most of those buildings were converted over to oil heat and the coal was no longer needed. So after 1945 when the war was over, there was not as much need for locally produced coal and most people had to find other means of making a living or else move to where the work was at. Many people moved to Cleveland OH, Youngstown OH, Pittsburgh PA, Erie PA, Buffalo NY, Towanda NY, Detroit Mich, Chicago Ill, and where ever else you had to go to find a job. The need to hunt was not as great as it was before the war, but people had done it for so long that they were willing to travel to go hunting a couple of days a year. The steel mills shut down for the first day of deer season as did the coal mines and the railroads and most other industry. So people had the first day of deer season off. There was no archery season, there was no muzzleloader season, there was no other seasons to compete with deer hunting. Around about 1970 the women's libbers took over and they wanted to burn their bra's and they wanted equal rights and they felt that it was no longer necessary to get married to have a family and the men were forced to pay child support and the women forced the employers to pay them equal pay for equal work - even if they couldn't do the work and the government let it all happen. Now all of a sudden we had two income families and the men could not get the time off from work and so they gave up the first day of deer season as a paid holiday to get more money in their pockets and the women divorced the men at a rate that is almost 50% today and the children were being brought up by the women. Walt Disney did us the biggest disfavor by making a movie called Bambi. With the personification of animals - where they could walk, talk, act, think like humans - the people got to thinking that deer has rights too and that it is wrong to hunt and to kill and that they should just all be left to go where they want and do as they please and some people took it upon themselves to even try to feed the deer in the winter and to keep them around their houses as pets. Now today there is less and less grandparents to take the youth of America hunting and there is less and less young people who have been exposed to hunting - because dad doesn't want to go hunting and loose a days pay and mom doesn't want dad to go to deer camp and drink and gamble and spend money - when they could spend it on a nicer house and car and things - like clothes and family vacations and stuff. So the adults gets pressured into not going hunting or they go hunting and their wives tells them not to bring it home or not to expect to hang a head on the wall if you get a trophy and they limit the amount of money that the man has to spend on clothes and guns and boots and a truck and all the things that you need today to go hunting. Then you factor in the fact that most people are only out today to shoot trophy deer - where the head gear the deer wears is worth more to them then the meat it produces and they just go out trophy hunting - and some people even goes one step further and donates the meat that they get - if they do get a deer to the butcher who gives it to a local food bank. So as less and less young people are being introduced into the sport, and as more and more baby boomers enters retirement and as less and less people needs the meat for substinance - less and less deer are shot. Add to that - more and more posted signs, where traditional hunting spots are being bought up by the rich people and where more and more traditional hunting spots are being lost to trophy hunters who's only goals is to keep all the deer for themselves and to keep all others off their hunting property - so they can harvest the largest bucks and keep a stable deer population in their area. IN the end - most of them are just hit by vehicles along the highway and the rest of the deer population finds out that the best place to live and eat is right next to the houses where you cannot hunt. and so they refuse to leave their little sanctuaries and they live around the houses and the posted signs where you cannot get to them and they are safe. As more and more hunters finds less and less land to hunt on and as more and more hunters finds less and less deer in the woods to hunt, they get to the point of saying - why should I even bother to go hunting. It's just getting to be too much of a hassle. It's no longer where you can hurry home from work and go behind your house and hunt for the last hour or two before it gets dark - unless you own the land behind your house and have permission from all other landowners in the area - to hunt within 150 yards of their houses. If you get off work at 4 or 5PM and you don't have a hour to travel to get to someplace where it is legal to hunt - you just give it up. As more and more adults gives it up, there is no one to take the kids out hunting and no one to force the kids to go out hunting when the parents can't even get the kids to cut the grass or shovel snow. So the game commission got the bright idea to let little kids hunt without a license for a year - like they always do when they want to sell you a license - they give it for free for a year to sucker you in and then they charge you for it the next year. Lot's of slob hunters hurriedly took their kids out into the woods - just so they could legally shoot more deer then they were entitled to - to fill their freezers - as they put it. I came across two guys that were dragging a spike buck on the last day of the season from Brockway - that didn't even have a kid, but claimed that they did and that the kid was still down in the woods trying to shoot a doe. Only it was not legal for them to carry a gun, sit by themselves, or shoot a doe - because it was bucks only. These people were just out to fill the freezer. I even had neighbors who had kids - and the kids told me they shot a deer and when I questioned them what kind of gun they used - they couldn't tell me and after a little prodding they admitted that they did not shoot the deer and that their dads and grandfathers and other people shot the deer and made the kids say they shot them and then the next year when they charged for a license - they didn't take the kids anymore... So the thing that is going to kill hunting is the unscrupulous hunters that uses the kids as a excuse to shoot deer that legally would be off limits to them - antler restrictions and stuff like that. The game commission even went so far as to make it legal to shot does from the first day to the last of the season. The woods were full of rifle shots on the first two days and then after that you did not see any deer or hunters anymore - because the hunters - if you want to call them that - were only out to fill the freezers and they shot the first legal deer that came down the trail and then they left the woods and then there was no one in the woods to move the deer around and the deer laid in one place and the hunters sat in their tower tree stands in another place and no one saw any deer and people got more and more disgusted and started quitting hunting - claiming that there were no more deer left to hunt. All I am going to say is - if there is a deer there, and if I have a legal tag to hunt it and shoot it - I will still get a deer - where other people has said that there is no more deer and that they are going to quit hunting. When you start getting into other states where they permit multiple kills in a day and several deer per a year, they just make it easier for a hunter to go out into the woods and shoot deer. With some states having a longer season and allowing Sunday hunting - they make it practically to the point of where it looks better and better all the time to travel to those places and shoot a bunch of deer then to hunt here and only be allowed to shoot two or three deer per a year. Add to that - these new style hunters that are only in the sport to shoot long range - where they use our deer as moving targets and they just want to shoot to validate how far they shot and not actually get out into the woods and hunt. Anyone with a sniper rifle and a bait pile can shoot a deer 600 - 800 yards, as long as they have the land to do it on and don't get caught. That is another gripe of mine - baiting. Other states allows baiting - because they do not have the number of hunters that Pennsylvania has and so they have to find other ways to get the deer numbers down to the point of having a more manageable deer herd. People who are only out for the sake of filling their tags as quickly as possible - likes baiting. Especially if there is a big antlered buck in their area and they cannot sleep as long as it is in the woods. We all know who these people are. We all know someone who only hunts for big deer and is willing to do what ever it takes to get a bragging rights deer on their wall and their names in the record books. So how do we fix the deer situation? In the southern counties - we go back to the two day after buck season for doe and in the northern counties - that are hard pressed to even find deer - we close the season for 3 years. We get the hunters back into the traditional hunting camps. We get the revenue from the hunters in the form of a higher fee for doe licenses. We get more money into the pockets of the local merchants - who depended on the hunters going to camp two weeks out of the year to go hunting - who spent their money in the bars and the restaurants and the local grocery stores and sporting goods stores. We ask the employers to shut their doors for the first day of deer rifle season and we encourage adults to take kids hunting - like it was 40 years ago when you begged your dad to take you hunting. Not like it is now - where kids tells their parents that they don't want to go. The reason why they don't want to go is because no one goes to camp anymore and they don't make it look like going on a vacation to go to camp to hunt deer and so the kids doesn't realize how much fun hunting is - because just staying home and going out into the cold woods - to not see anything cannot compete with video games where there is instant gratification - where you can just turn it on and 2 minutes later you can shoot as many bucks and you can see. Hunting is a lot of hard work and it takes a lot of dedication and you have to have dedicated hunters to make the next generation of hunters want to go out into the woods and hunt. We have to change the mind set of the women - to forget about trying to make pets out of them and to forget about how they have feelings and to forget about trying to fill our pockets and our closets with money and useless junk and to put more value in family time - outdoors in the woods with our family members and friends instead of staying in the house, talking on cell phones, playing games on the computer and being anti social. If we don't change the seasons and the way we hunt deer - in the near future there will not be many hunters to hunt deer or small game anymore except the trophy hunters which will push for legislation which will make it legal to bait deer and hunt on Sundays. The majority will always out rule the minority. |
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Hunterman I'm a Member of the Monster Buck Club!
My Final Goal is to become a VIP Member of PAbucks.com!!
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Need I also mention that we need to cut archery season back to two weeks per a year and get rid of all of these special season where all we are doing is making it easier for a person to harvest more then their share of deer and wildlife.
Put more emphasis on small game, develop more lands for hunting small game and plant crops in the food plots and use more fertilizer in the food plots so there will be more food for the wildlife to eat and use throughout the year. Get rid of tree stands in the game lands and get rid of road hunters. |
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renegade Administrator
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Your jumping all over bainpa. Your original question had to do with non-res. hunters but you didn’t address them at all in your comments. You insinuated that the decrease in nres. was due there being fewer deer nowadays. But if you jump back 10 years when we had a ton of deer, the decrease in nres. hunters was even higher.
The vote for antlerless allocations isn’t until the April meeting. Harvests are still being made and data is still coming in. Again your numbers are wrong. It’s all available on their website. The allocations for this year were 815,423 and the number of hunters is 948,323 for last year, this years is still unknown but most likely only a few thousand less. The amount of tags per harvest varies somewhat but your close. So as the amount of hunters decreases, it then takes more tags to achieve a similar amount. This is why some would like doe tags to be transferable. I personally think the allocations are higher than they need be, but I have no proof to back that up. Again it all comes down to the need for an accurate harvest report and that where the hunters fall short. The size of the herd in Pa. is 829,413 as of September 15th at 2:37pm In 1999 the total general license sales were 1,033,315, an 84,992 drop has happened since. However from 1989(1,156,891) to 1999 we had a 123,576 decrease, a much higher drop. |
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bainpa I'm a 12 point buck on this forum.
My next goal is to become a Member of the Pabucks.com Monster Buck Club.
|
[quote="renegade"]Your jumping all over bainpa. Your original question had to do with non-res. hunters but you didn’t address them at all in your comments. You insinuated that the decrease in nres. was due there being fewer deer nowadays. But if you jump back 10 years when we had a ton of deer, the decrease in nres. hunters was even higher.
The vote for antlerless allocations isn’t until the April meeting. Harvests are still being made and data is still coming in. Again your numbers are wrong. It’s all available on their website. The allocations for this year were 815,423 and the number of hunters is 948,323 for last year, this years is still unknown but most likely only a few thousand less. The amount of tags per harvest varies somewhat but your close. So as the amount of hunters decreases, it then takes more tags to achieve a similar amount. This is why some would like doe tags to be transferable. I personally think the allocations are higher than they need be, but I have no proof to back that up. Again it all comes down to the need for an accurate harvest report and that where the hunters fall short. The size of the herd in Pa. is 829,413 as of September 15th at 2:37pm In 1999 the total general license sales were 1,033,315, an 84,992 drop has happened since. However from 1989(1,156,891) to 1999 we had a 123,576 decrease, a much higher drop.[/quote] On your quote on the 829,413 thousand deer in Pa. what year is this for . Also will you be at the game meeting in Harrisburg feb 1 and 2 |
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PAWDUKES I'm a Member of the Monster Buck Club!
My Final Goal is to become a VIP Member of PAbucks.com!!
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[/b][/i]huntersman makes some great points but i have to ask what does deer stands in game lands have to do with any of it?
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renegade Administrator
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bainpa - Pick a year, any year, it doesn't matter. The number is irrelevant to a hunter. Lets stay on topic for this, I'd like to get to the bottom of it.
Would it matter if the number was 850,000 or 800,00? Would it matter if it was 900,000 or 700,000? You couldn't possibly hunt enough days or enough land to make a number that big have any relevance. Do you agree that it is impossible to know how many deer are in the entire state? What about a unit? When we had 100,000 deer, some hunters wanted more. When we had 500,000 deer, some hunters wanted more. When we had 1,000,000, some hunters wanted more. When we had 1,503,000 deer, some hunters wanted more. Where would it have ended? Not sure yet if I'll be at the meeting. I usually go but I never know for sure till that weekend. It's Jan 30, 31st and Feb.1st. |
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bainpa I'm a 12 point buck on this forum.
My next goal is to become a Member of the Pabucks.com Monster Buck Club.
|
[quote="renegade"]bainpa - Pick a year, any year, it doesn't matter. The number is irrelevant to a hunter. Lets stay on topic for this, I'd like to get to the bottom of it.
Would it matter if the number was 850,000 or 800,00? Would it matter if it was 900,000 or 700,000? You couldn't possibly hunt enough days or enough land to make a number that big have any relevance. Do you agree that it is impossible to know how many deer are in the entire state? What about a unit? When we had 100,000 deer, some hunters wanted more. When we had 500,000 deer, some hunters wanted more. When we had 1,000,000, some hunters wanted more. When we had 1,503,000 deer, some hunters wanted more. Where would it have ended? Not sure yet if I'll be at the meeting. I usually go but I never know for sure till that weekend. It's Jan 30, 31st and Feb.1st.[/quote] Q (The number is irrelevant to a hunter. Lets stay on topic for this ?) A, Numbers are . And always will be relevant in any sport ,games ,schooling or in any part of life As for the topic . Why have we lost so many non res . No deer no hunters is my only thought . I have many non res friends that i have with hunted in many states since 1990 many of these friends hunted my dads farm in Albion Pa. , 12 guys total , as of 2008 non have hunt in pa since ? Still hunting with these guys in other states These numbers your throwing do matter as if we only have 550,000 deer? and 815,000 lic going out , hunting in Pa. is doomed Q (Do you agree that it is impossible to know how many deer are in the entire state? What about a unit?) A , Total exact numbers yes this is impossible ,but this is where units come into play breaking big woods into little woods with foot work ,cams,technology , trained pros ? , access to college students *. It should be manageable to get a close figures of our deer heard Do you think deer hunting is good or poor in Pa. And why? Stats of hunter input would be a + Oldzimm And all EXT Season hunters past a doe and two fawns today with my bow 30 yards . First deer i,ve seen in Ext archery HU HU also had a baldy land in a tree 40 away as with today s oncoming storm they seem to be moving . Love it will always do it . Till the body says no . Lets keep our heritage . And the only natural rebounding resource in Pa. OUR WHITETAILS |
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fishjiming I'm a Member of the Monster Buck Club!
My Final Goal is to become a VIP Member of PAbucks.com!!
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the number of non resident hunter dropped probably because it is next to impossible for them to get an antlerless tag in the traditional hunting camp areas .. just my thoughts
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renegade Administrator
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"A, Numbers are . And always will be relevant in any sport ,games ,schooling or in any part of life "
Some numbers are relevant, yes agreed, but I said the number of the entire herd quantity in particular. Why is that number relevant to you as a hunter? How does it effect YOUR hunt? It doesn't matter to me because I'm only hunting a small sliver of the entire state and where I hunt is not based on the entire Pa herd in any way whatsoever. I'm going to base my hunts on where the deer are. Always have, in fact everyone I know does as well. I will have to look at the non-res. only numbers tomorrow, but I suspect they are similar to the total numbers, where we were loosing hunters faster in the 90 then we were in the 2000's. "A , Total exact numbers yes this is impossible ,but this is where units come into play breaking big woods into little woods with foot work ,cams,technology , trained pros ? , access to college students *. It should be manageable to get a close figures of our deer heard" If you agree an exact statewide number is not possible, then how could a unit sized number be? Because to get a statewide number you'd first have to get each units total, therefore that is impossible as well. Sure I agree there could be a more accurate number, but this is where hunters are failing and then putting the blame elsewhere. In a very simplified nutshell, the herd size is projected to be X based on past history trends, mortality rates, recruitment rates, birth rates etc. Once that projection has been made, the season happens, then they take the harvest and subtract it from the projection and get the herd estimate. If that harvest is incorrect then so will the herd estimate. This is why we are our own worst enemy when it comes to a more accurate figure. Only we as hunters can provide that accurate harvest figure for them. I think there are certainly additional ways but they take money and/or manpower and that's where they PGC is sorely lacking. "Do you think deer hunting is good or poor in Pa. And why?" I think it's both, depending on where you hunt and what you consider to be good or poor. My personal deer hunting I think is poor, but I certainly am not naive enough or self centered to think that my hunting experience reflects everyone hunting, especially when I see and hear of others who have it better than me. Hunting is poor in some places but I understand why and I can wait for better times to return. I knew it wasn't going to be an overnight fix. But now I see light at the end of the tunnel. |
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renegade Administrator
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"I will have to look at the non-res. only numbers tomorrow, but I suspect they are similar to the total numbers, where we were loosing hunters faster in the 90's then we were in the 2000's."
I suspected wrong. NRes. numbers have fallen at a faster rate more recently over the past 10 years. Non-resident license sales only 1979- 86,112 1989- 78,473 an 8.8% drop 1999- 69,998 a 10.8% drop 2009- 53,417 a 23.7% drop |
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PAWDUKES I'm a Member of the Monster Buck Club!
My Final Goal is to become a VIP Member of PAbucks.com!!
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[quote="Hunterman"]Get rid of tree stands in the game lands .[/quote]
[/i]can someone tell me what this has to do with any of this topic?[i] |
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renegade Administrator
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"The question is, How long is the tunnel?
Will (Oldzimm) Zimmerman" Only mother nature knows for sure. But it's been 10 years, 5 of reduction and 5 of stabilization and now with the lowering of allocations and a shortened doe season I believe we'll start to see an increase. I also think it's time to eliminate the jr / sr october doe season. With 5 years of very low deer numbers the habitat has benefited and should continue as long as the herd isn't increased too fast. The BESF isn't erecting as many fences as they needed before. Disclaimer: The above comment was directed to the 4D wmu. ps. That's weird, Zimm's post was made before the last two, yet it's staying in the last position. I wish John would get this software updated. |
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 | Why are non resident hunters leaving pa | |
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| Board Index » 2009 Non-PA (out of state) Deer Hunting Log | The time now is Tue May 21, 2013 2:29 pm |
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